Suzanne,
Re your comments
> It was never my point that Austen disliked love
> matches! Just following passion without regard to
> reason and prudence. In the case of Miss Francis
> Ward, she not only married badly in a material
> sense, but she obviously chose a man of poor
> character.
I think you're reading a lot into that. Lt. Ward probably wasn't the man Capt. Wentworth was, but I gotta feel some respect for anyone who was crippled defending his country.
Lots of combat vets, particularly if they've been seriously injured, have a hard time readjusting. Doesn't make 'em bad men, or persons of bad character. Just men who drew a bad hand through no fault of their own, and didn't quite have the stuff to handle it.
Lt. Price has two sons who apparently look up to him enough of him that they decide to follow in his footsteps by becoming professional officers.
That doesn't indicate a man of low character. Just a man who drew a bad hand and didn't quite have the stuff to handle it.
> I am quite sure that if Anne had
> married Wentworth at first, even if he had been
> wounded, he would not have become a drunkard and
> fool, such as Mr. Price became. There are two
> aspects of making a prudent match--that of having
> some financial support, but also that of choosing
> someone of good and trustworthy character. I think
> Jane always held the second to be the most
> important, but the first could not be ignored
> either. And love, a real love based on respect and
> esteem, is very important! But acting on only
> infatuation and lust--which is all that most
> people mean when they talk of being in love--is
> exceedingly unwise, and those who are carried away
> by their passions never benefit from it in the
> end.
In this I think I have to agree. Matches in Austen that were based on impulse and sexual desire, with no firm foundation of true affection and mutual respect, didn't fare well (Lydia and Wickham being perhaps the most obvious example; but even a good character, like Marianne, could make a bad choice, like Willoughby).
Just so we're on the same page, by love match I meant, not only a realtionship that cooked, but that was based on true, lasting affection, and mutual respect. That was clearly what Anne and Wentworth had, and their losing it was what made them so miserable.
That said, it's still not clear to me that Lt. and Mrs. Ward had a relationship that had more in common with Wickham and Lydia than with Wentworth and Anne.
Sometimes mutual affection and respect just isn't enough to weather the misfortunes that life hands one.
So I come back to my original point. Lt. and Mrs. Ward have a rough go because that's how events turn out for them, whether they had a "fine, stout love" or just a tingle between their legs. Anne and Wentworth might have weathered bad times better than the Wards, but if bad times had come, no matter their strength of character, they'd still have had a tough time.
It all comes down to "what events prove."
JIM
JIM
Re your comments
> It was never my point that Austen disliked love
> matches! Just following passion without regard to
> reason and prudence. In the case of Miss Francis
> Ward, she not only married badly in a material
> sense, but she obviously chose a man of poor
> character.
I think you're reading a lot into that. Lt. Ward probably wasn't the man Capt. Wentworth was, but I gotta feel some respect for anyone who was crippled defending his country.
Lots of combat vets, particularly if they've been seriously injured, have a hard time readjusting. Doesn't make 'em bad men, or persons of bad character. Just men who drew a bad hand through no fault of their own, and didn't quite have the stuff to handle it.
Lt. Price has two sons who apparently look up to him enough of him that they decide to follow in his footsteps by becoming professional officers.
That doesn't indicate a man of low character. Just a man who drew a bad hand and didn't quite have the stuff to handle it.
> I am quite sure that if Anne had
> married Wentworth at first, even if he had been
> wounded, he would not have become a drunkard and
> fool, such as Mr. Price became. There are two
> aspects of making a prudent match--that of having
> some financial support, but also that of choosing
> someone of good and trustworthy character. I think
> Jane always held the second to be the most
> important, but the first could not be ignored
> either. And love, a real love based on respect and
> esteem, is very important! But acting on only
> infatuation and lust--which is all that most
> people mean when they talk of being in love--is
> exceedingly unwise, and those who are carried away
> by their passions never benefit from it in the
> end.
In this I think I have to agree. Matches in Austen that were based on impulse and sexual desire, with no firm foundation of true affection and mutual respect, didn't fare well (Lydia and Wickham being perhaps the most obvious example; but even a good character, like Marianne, could make a bad choice, like Willoughby).
Just so we're on the same page, by love match I meant, not only a realtionship that cooked, but that was based on true, lasting affection, and mutual respect. That was clearly what Anne and Wentworth had, and their losing it was what made them so miserable.
That said, it's still not clear to me that Lt. and Mrs. Ward had a relationship that had more in common with Wickham and Lydia than with Wentworth and Anne.
Sometimes mutual affection and respect just isn't enough to weather the misfortunes that life hands one.
So I come back to my original point. Lt. and Mrs. Ward have a rough go because that's how events turn out for them, whether they had a "fine, stout love" or just a tingle between their legs. Anne and Wentworth might have weathered bad times better than the Wards, but if bad times had come, no matter their strength of character, they'd still have had a tough time.
It all comes down to "what events prove."
JIM
JIM