Alberta Wrote:
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> Nikki, you may be aware that marriage is one of
> the hardest things you can do, and that most
> definitely includes even when you are madly in
> love. Austen was not married, but she is an apt
> observer in my opinion and experience.
>
I'm well aware of that. But JA was also a realist (there are views that she was a realist rather than a romantic), and realistically, especially in a society like the Regency, women had lower expectations, marriage was their expected "career", and gentlewomen could not pursue other careers to make their own fortunes or even earn a decent living (except perhaps as governess). So many gentlewomen settled for "make do" marriages and were contented or reasonably happy with fairly decent, agreeable men, even if they were not their soulmates. (To digress a bit, I don't see the heroines and heroes of S&S as soulmates for each other). We may not agree with their choices, but we are not Regency gentlewomen (esp gentlewomen with small dowries such as the Bennet girls, Emma said she need not marry unless she fall in love because she won't be a poor old maid, but a rich old maid)..
I believe there are degrees as I wrote earlier -- a marriage is not only either happy or miserable, there were also the doable, or make do marriages.
> When you say Charlotte was "reasonably contented,"
> what does that mean? Charlotte spent her days
> trying to avoid her partner in life.
She tried to avoid him so that he won't get on her nerves! And Eliz, after seeing Charlotte's contentment, and understanding her address "in bearing with, and guiding her husband" acknowledged that it was all done very well" Jane was quite right after all.
The joy a
> man or woman feels when in harmony with someone
> you know can trust, someone who gets what you are
> about (more or less, we are perhaps something of a
> mystery even to those who love us most)--that joy
> was to be forever denied Charlotte,
Actually I feel very sorry for women like Charlotte, a sensible but plain woman who had to make do in a marriage with a fool -- but that was due to her lack of choice in her society. And I could in a way respect her for making the best of it -- she made Collins happy, in contrast to Maria Bertram who also married a stupid man for his money, and was a bad, unfaithful wife to him.
> Theoretically, there is a woman somewhere who
> answers the questions in Collins' s soul or, put
> differently, in a modern psychological test, could
> be shown to have characteristics that synergize
> with his in such a way that they find each other's
> company appealing and more pleasurable than
> solitude.
>
I think Collins was very lucky to marry a sensible woman like Charlotte -- as Eliz said, one of the few sensible women who would have accepted him, and made him happy, who could tactfully guide him. If a woman as stupid as he was had actually married him, they might have made a mess of their lives e.g. their finances and everything. In Persuasion, Lady Elliot was a good wife to her silly husband as long as she lived.
> My suggestion is that while there are "nice" men
> other than Darcy who would meet this criteria for
> Elizabeth, neither Bingley nor the colonel as
> written are one of them.
the fact that they are
> "nice" men and Elizabeth is a "reasonable" woman
> willing to settle, is not enough reason to make
> these matches work. Or, maybe you disagee but we
> will just have to agree to disagree.
We have to agree to disagree. As I said, nether would be the ideal, but there is enough reason for such matches to work. But not Eliz with Collins! Even if she did her best and entered the marriage with Collins full of good resolution, I believe she would fail and be miserable -- it would not be a "make do" marriage..
> I agree that Elizabeth was principled and would
> always try to treat her spouse well, even, I
> daresay, if she found herself in a marriage with
> Mr. Collins. But she -- and none of us -- can turn
> off the person we really are. What kind of man
> would it take to make Elizabeth happy? While both
> Wickham and the colonel have charm, that would not
> be enough for more than a few evenings in the
> ballrooms and salons.
Of course Eliz would be miserable with Wickham -- once she found out he was all charm and no principle. But there's a difference between a charming, unprincipled man and a charming, principled man.
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nikki, you may be aware that marriage is one of
> the hardest things you can do, and that most
> definitely includes even when you are madly in
> love. Austen was not married, but she is an apt
> observer in my opinion and experience.
>
I'm well aware of that. But JA was also a realist (there are views that she was a realist rather than a romantic), and realistically, especially in a society like the Regency, women had lower expectations, marriage was their expected "career", and gentlewomen could not pursue other careers to make their own fortunes or even earn a decent living (except perhaps as governess). So many gentlewomen settled for "make do" marriages and were contented or reasonably happy with fairly decent, agreeable men, even if they were not their soulmates. (To digress a bit, I don't see the heroines and heroes of S&S as soulmates for each other). We may not agree with their choices, but we are not Regency gentlewomen (esp gentlewomen with small dowries such as the Bennet girls, Emma said she need not marry unless she fall in love because she won't be a poor old maid, but a rich old maid)..
I believe there are degrees as I wrote earlier -- a marriage is not only either happy or miserable, there were also the doable, or make do marriages.
> When you say Charlotte was "reasonably contented,"
> what does that mean? Charlotte spent her days
> trying to avoid her partner in life.
She tried to avoid him so that he won't get on her nerves! And Eliz, after seeing Charlotte's contentment, and understanding her address "in bearing with, and guiding her husband" acknowledged that it was all done very well" Jane was quite right after all.
The joy a
> man or woman feels when in harmony with someone
> you know can trust, someone who gets what you are
> about (more or less, we are perhaps something of a
> mystery even to those who love us most)--that joy
> was to be forever denied Charlotte,
Actually I feel very sorry for women like Charlotte, a sensible but plain woman who had to make do in a marriage with a fool -- but that was due to her lack of choice in her society. And I could in a way respect her for making the best of it -- she made Collins happy, in contrast to Maria Bertram who also married a stupid man for his money, and was a bad, unfaithful wife to him.
> Theoretically, there is a woman somewhere who
> answers the questions in Collins' s soul or, put
> differently, in a modern psychological test, could
> be shown to have characteristics that synergize
> with his in such a way that they find each other's
> company appealing and more pleasurable than
> solitude.
>
I think Collins was very lucky to marry a sensible woman like Charlotte -- as Eliz said, one of the few sensible women who would have accepted him, and made him happy, who could tactfully guide him. If a woman as stupid as he was had actually married him, they might have made a mess of their lives e.g. their finances and everything. In Persuasion, Lady Elliot was a good wife to her silly husband as long as she lived.
> My suggestion is that while there are "nice" men
> other than Darcy who would meet this criteria for
> Elizabeth, neither Bingley nor the colonel as
> written are one of them.
the fact that they are
> "nice" men and Elizabeth is a "reasonable" woman
> willing to settle, is not enough reason to make
> these matches work. Or, maybe you disagee but we
> will just have to agree to disagree.
We have to agree to disagree. As I said, nether would be the ideal, but there is enough reason for such matches to work. But not Eliz with Collins! Even if she did her best and entered the marriage with Collins full of good resolution, I believe she would fail and be miserable -- it would not be a "make do" marriage..
> I agree that Elizabeth was principled and would
> always try to treat her spouse well, even, I
> daresay, if she found herself in a marriage with
> Mr. Collins. But she -- and none of us -- can turn
> off the person we really are. What kind of man
> would it take to make Elizabeth happy? While both
> Wickham and the colonel have charm, that would not
> be enough for more than a few evenings in the
> ballrooms and salons.
Of course Eliz would be miserable with Wickham -- once she found out he was all charm and no principle. But there's a difference between a charming, unprincipled man and a charming, principled man.